Presenting: “Transcripts”

07_11_2020_PRESENTING_Transcripts

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From Virginia Humanities, this is

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with good reason.

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I'm Sarah McConnell.

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Earlier this year, our former

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producer, Cass Adair, left

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with good reason to work on an

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exciting new project.

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Today, we're thrilled to share part

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of the pilot from his groundbreaking

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new podcast Transcripts.

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It pops in my head.

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It was a clip of Raven Symone.

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Sitting at a table.

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She said "l had never felt
liberation,

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but in this moment I'm around other

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black people.

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I felt liberated."

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That's LaSaia Wade.

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She's talking to oral historian Myrl

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Beam in

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fall 2019.

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And she's talking about freedom.

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It's always gonna be a bill things

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to be paying.

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It's always going to be a water bill

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that's being turned off.

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It's always gonna be a car note that

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you missed.

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It's always to be that particular

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stress.

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But I feel liberated when I'm around

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other black people.

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I feel liberated when I'm around

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other trans people.

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From the Treader Transgender Oral

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History Project.

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This is Transcripts,

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a new podcast series

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about how trans activists

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are changing the world.

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What do we want? Trans rights? When
do we want it? Now.

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We want to talk about trans issues,

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trans rights and gay rights.

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It's like it's OK if you're

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Queer.

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There are some incredible

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trans women of color activists up

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here with me.

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Yes.

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Let's her it for them.

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The state of transness in America.

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The state of blackness in America.

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The state of sexuality in America.

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Everything that I care about:

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housing, discrimination,

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education.

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And that that is the work.

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That is the work that I'm so honored

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to stand here and lift up

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for you today.

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My name is Andrea Jenkins.

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And I'm Myrl Beam.

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I'm the one who spoke with LaSaia

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and all the other voices you'll hear

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in this episode.

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I work on an oral history project

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where I collect stories of trans

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activists from all over the U.S..

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I actually started that

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oral history project back in 2015.

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I wanted to hear the stories of

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trans people in their own words

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and preserved those stories for

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other people to learn from.

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And I'm so glad you did, because

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the stories are amazing and

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those stories are especially

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important right now because so

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many trans people are dreaming of a

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new world, one without

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gender discrimination or racism

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or economic injustice.

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We've been asking folks,

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what are the tools you're

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using to make change?

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Who's leading the struggle?

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And how in the world are people

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getting enough money to live

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and do all this work?

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So in this pilot episode, we're

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going to tackle a question that

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sounds simple but is actually really

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big.

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Is life actually getting better for

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trans people?

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So when I interviewed LaSaia, I

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asked her, what about the fact

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that things seem to be getting

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better for some people?

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At the same time, we have this

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visibility. There's also been more

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black trans woman killed last year

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than I think ever in my lifetime.

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How do you explain that?

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What do you think is going on?

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We allowed our enemies to know where

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we're at.

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We had allowed our enemies

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to know where we're at.

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This answer was so compelling that

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I wanted to back up and learn more.

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How did we arrive at a place where

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some trans people, especially white

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trans folks, people like me,

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think of things as getting better?

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But life is actually getting a lot

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more dangerous for black trans women

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like LaSaia.

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To answer that question, we

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talk to so many different people

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and we want you to hear their

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stories directly from them.

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You'll hear folks describing the

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barriers that they face,

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but you'll also hear what

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they are doing to change things.

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That decision to try to change

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things, to devote your life to a

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larger struggle.

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It isn't always an easy choice.

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Activism wasn't exactly LaSaia's

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Plan A..

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I was director of communications

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in Tennessee. Nashville, Tennessee.

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At BellSouth when it was slowly

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switching over to AT&T.

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"For the price plus digital

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satellite TV with more HD channels

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than cable. All four under ninety

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nine dollars a month.

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BellSouth call today."

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Good job. After I graduated

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college, I nailed one.

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She wasn't out as trans at work.

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As a trans feminine

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person is easier to live

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as a stealth person and

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especially trying to live a healthy

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life or also live a wealthy life.

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What I mean about wealthy is going

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to school.

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Getting a thriving job, not

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just surviving, but thriving a job,

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a good career.

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But about a year into the job,

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she rode into work after she had

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been out out the night

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before at the club.

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You know I was still young. I was
still

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vivacious.

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I wanted to have fun.

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Music Playing

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So I came back to work

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that following Monday

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with my stuff on my desk packed

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up.

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One of LaSaia's cis gay coworkers

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had seen her at the club.

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And from there he figured out she

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was trans.

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Then he outted her to the rest of

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the office.

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The coworker that wanted my job

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told my boss at that time

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that I was a trans person

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and it was multiple layers to that,

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right? I was a black person

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in the high position at a company

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that that is not

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really known for a black person to

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be the high in a position that I was

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in. And also I was a trans

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person.

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And then they fired me for

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non-disclosure of my transness.

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She was in Tennessee

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where there aren't many protections

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for workers.

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They fired you because your hair is

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purple an they don't like the color

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of your hair.

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So in the moments

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I was depressed. I was like what am I

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going to do.

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How dare they treat me this way?

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Then I was just like,

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how can I take my language and my

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education and take it to the next

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level for communities, my community?

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That is not seen.

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So I joined Black lives matter.

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And ever since then, I took off.

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And that transformation from being

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fired to becoming an activist.

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That's a familiar story for

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the trans folks we spoke with.

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I'm just literally comin

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to work doing my job,

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and I don't know

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if I'm going to be fired or not.

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That's Diamond Stylz.

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By the time she was fired from her

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job, her life was already shaped

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by racism and discrimination.

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My mother had been caught up in the

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prison industrial complex

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as a black woman.

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She was one of those super

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predators.

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Super Predator refers

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to a now discredited theory

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from the 1990s.

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The idea that some people were

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just naturally violent

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and lack empathy.

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Most of those so-called super

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predators were black.

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The concept was made popular to the

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nation by the Clinton

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administration.

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They used that terminology in

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campaigns, ultimately passing

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a racist Tough On Crime bill in

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1994.

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They are not just gangs of kids

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anymore. They are often

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the kinds of kids that are called

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super predators.

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No conscience, no empathy.

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We can talk about why they ended up

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that way. But first, we have to

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bring them to heal.

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And the president has asked that

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faith.

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That fake science was part of a

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trend of mass incarceration

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of black and brown people.

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People like Diamond's mom.

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And so she got caught up in that.

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And I got custody of my brother.

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And so I'm at home, a

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single trans woman

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with a eleven year old.

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As a black transwoman, Diamond knew

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she had even more stacked against

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her.

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I worked for Hewlett Packard.

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And when my transience

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came out, one of my family members

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worked there like a distant cousin.

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And she told people that I was

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trans.

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Her coworkers started harassing

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her.

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One of the supervisors lost their

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keys and

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they gave me the keys to give it

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to the supervisor so they can take

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pictures of us interacting with each

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other and make fun of him.

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I

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don't have any political recourse.

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I don't have any legal recourse

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because of the state that I lived

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in. We did have a protection for

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trans people.

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And so I

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was forced into

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survival sex work at the time.

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And, you know, it just changed

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the trajectory of my life.

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Sex work is something that some

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trans women do to make

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money.

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But it wasn't that Diamond wanted

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to.

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She felt isolated.

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But then she found something that

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changed her life.

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YouTube.

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Chaos that should go down and die

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also with that, this is a go time.

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How are you?

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I wasn't trying to activist,

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but because of those situations

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and because of technology, I started

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to be YouTuber.

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They see your personality, your

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smile.

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All that good stuff. They see all

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the bad. That's what they are.

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And because I was a little bit older

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in my transition.

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I was 26 at the time, but I had been

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living my truth

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since 13, 14.

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And so because I had already

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physically transitioned years

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ago, my narratives

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were about just relationships and

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stories.

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You have to create your own

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ideals of beauty.

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You. And stick to it.

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Because if you have your own ideals

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of beauty and you're all ideas of

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where you should be and what you

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should look like, no, I can come

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around and smack it out of your

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head.

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I had like

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4.5 million views and

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it just it just grew from that.

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I feel like every time they talk to

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trans people, all

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they have to talk about was

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the bathroom issue.

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I care about things more than the

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bathroom.

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People started to say I was activist

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and I really wasn't for sure if they

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head sick.

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Because at the time I was still

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doing sex work I was doing all the

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non respectable stuff

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and I was like, no activist.

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That's for the goody

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two shoes. That's not me.

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But the more time and worked in

00:10:59:04 00:11:00:25
activism, the more she realized

00:11:01:07 00:11:02:10
it actually was her.

00:11:03:02 00:11:04:23
And so what this last

00:11:04:24 00:11:06:20
five years has taught me in being

00:11:06:21 00:11:08:07
in this work is that you have the

00:11:08:08 00:11:10:07
power to build a community to keep

00:11:10:08 00:11:11:03
you safe.

00:11:11:04 00:11:11:25
You have the power to build

00:11:11:26 00:11:13:16
community, to give you the support

00:11:13:17 00:11:14:21
that you need so you can do the

00:11:14:22 00:11:16:16
things you want to do, give you the

00:11:16:17 00:11:18:16
power to change your

00:11:18:17 00:11:20:04
own trajectory, your life.

00:11:20:13 00:11:21:24
You want to be that structure for

00:11:22:00 00:11:22:24
somebody else.

00:11:23:04 00:11:25:02
And you want the people in your life

00:11:25:03 00:11:26:09
to be that structure for you.

00:11:28:16 00:11:30:06
But what does that change look like?

00:11:30:16 00:11:31:20
When I asked her how things had

00:11:31:21 00:11:33:08
changed in the last few decades,

00:11:33:13 00:11:35:10
LeZion had a pretty frank answer.

00:11:35:22 00:11:37:21
It's a lot of assimilating

00:11:37:24 00:11:38:24
politics.

00:11:39:04 00:11:41:03
And what I mean by assimilating

00:11:41:04 00:11:43:01
politics is as

00:11:43:02 00:11:44:16
a black revolutionary, as a black

00:11:44:17 00:11:45:22
person, that deals with black

00:11:45:23 00:11:47:23
politics and black power and black

00:11:47:24 00:11:48:23
liberation.

00:11:49:06 00:11:51:04
We think that if we

00:11:51:10 00:11:53:11
want to be a part of society,

00:11:53:23 00:11:56:13
we're still using our master's tools

00:11:57:03 00:11:59:03
to be a part of society that deem

00:11:59:08 00:12:00:11
us not normal.

00:12:01:20 00:12:03:14
A lot of trans people have this idea

00:12:03:15 00:12:05:03
that if we get more visibility,

00:12:05:10 00:12:06:10
we'll do better.

00:12:06:23 00:12:08:21
And some of that has worked for

00:12:08:22 00:12:09:21
people like me.

00:12:09:22 00:12:11:15
But we heard very different stories

00:12:11:22 00:12:13:14
from the folks working on the front

00:12:13:15 00:12:15:15
lines of black and trans

00:12:15:20 00:12:17:21
people of color lead movement.

00:12:19:09 00:12:20:12
You have to understand that

00:12:20:13 00:12:21:19
visibility does not change

00:12:22:15 00:12:23:23
the heart and minds of the people.

00:12:24:05 00:12:26:05
If I'm still in Texas or Indiana

00:12:26:12 00:12:27:24
and I'm getting fired and I don't

00:12:27:25 00:12:29:24
have the legal recourse to

00:12:30:07 00:12:32:04
protect myself against

00:12:32:05 00:12:33:22
workforce discrimination, it doesn't

00:12:33:23 00:12:35:03
matter if everybody's seen this on

00:12:35:04 00:12:35:23
the TV.

00:12:35:24 00:12:37:15
When I was homeless, I couldn't go

00:12:37:21 00:12:39:24
to the cis gender women's

00:12:39:25 00:12:41:12
shelter because they're

00:12:41:13 00:12:43:02
uncomfortable and whatever rules

00:12:43:03 00:12:43:23
that they have.

00:12:43:24 00:12:45:23
I couldn't go to the male shelter

00:12:46:03 00:12:47:20
because that's a liability for them.

00:12:47:24 00:12:49:08
Like they literally asked me on the

00:12:49:09 00:12:50:05
phone.

00:12:50:06 00:12:51:16
Can you take your breast off?

00:12:53:20 00:12:55:01
On the phone. Well, if you can't

00:12:55:02 00:12:56:07
take them off, then you can't come

00:12:56:08 00:12:58:05
here, went to the LGBT --

00:12:59:08 00:13:00:08
LGBT.

00:13:01:23 00:13:03:14
Went to them and they said, well,

00:13:03:15 00:13:05:15
our funding only covers people with

00:13:05:16 00:13:06:16
HIV. Now

00:13:07:13 00:13:09:02
because of the work that we've done.

00:13:09:13 00:13:10:13
The LGBT one, now is

00:13:11:08 00:13:12:07
open for all.

00:13:12:08 00:13:14:00
But in the time that I needed it,

00:13:14:05 00:13:16:01
the normal social safety nets that

00:13:16:02 00:13:17:08
a cis person could go to.

00:13:17:11 00:13:18:25
I didn't have access to them and

00:13:19:05 00:13:20:18
they weren't safe places for me.

00:13:23:13 00:13:24:21
I've heard countless stories about

00:13:24:22 00:13:25:21
like a trans training happening in a

00:13:26:01 00:13:27:14
police department and then

00:13:27:24 00:13:29:13
the police in that department more

00:13:29:14 00:13:30:23
easily identifying trans people to

00:13:30:24 00:13:31:23
harass.

00:13:32:06 00:13:33:21
That's Dean Spade, founder of the

00:13:33:25 00:13:35:14
Sylvia Rivera Law Project in New

00:13:35:16 00:13:37:10
York, an organization that offers

00:13:37:11 00:13:38:22
legal support to trans and gender

00:13:38:23 00:13:39:24
nonconforming people.

00:13:40:07 00:13:41:10
He argues that queer in

00:13:41:12 00:13:43:03
transmissibility can cover up the

00:13:43:04 00:13:44:14
fact that inequality is still

00:13:44:21 00:13:45:09
growing.

00:13:45:10 00:13:46:13
Civil rights legislation doesn't

00:13:46:18 00:13:48:01
doesn't really work to resolve

00:13:48:02 00:13:49:20
systemic harm against hated groups.

00:13:49:21 00:13:50:22
It hasn't for any of the hated

00:13:50:23 00:13:52:22
groups that are supposedly covered.

00:13:53:02 00:13:54:10
Conditions continue to worsen for

00:13:54:11 00:13:55:10
all of those groups.

00:13:55:11 00:13:57:16
In other words, marriage equality

00:13:57:21 00:13:59:22
and anti-discrimination laws

00:14:00:09 00:14:02:04
may make it seem like things are

00:14:02:05 00:14:04:03
better for LGBT people,

00:14:04:15 00:14:06:13
but they don't make poor people

00:14:06:14 00:14:09:02
less poor or get prisoners

00:14:09:04 00:14:10:04
out of prison.

00:14:10:06 00:14:11:09
So for Dean, that means

00:14:12:01 00:14:13:22
that just changing laws isn't the

00:14:13:23 00:14:14:22
answer.

00:14:15:01 00:14:16:15
If resources are still being hoarded

00:14:16:16 00:14:18:08
by some people, then the rest of us

00:14:18:11 00:14:19:09
are less free.

00:14:19:10 00:14:20:22
No matter what the law says,.

00:14:21:23 00:14:23:18
Even though the connection and

00:14:23:19 00:14:25:19
community that Diamond has

00:14:25:20 00:14:27:20
created through her media presence

00:14:28:06 00:14:29:20
is incredibly valuable.

00:14:30:16 00:14:32:21
Diamond pretty much agrees.

00:14:33:16 00:14:34:16
Those key bottom

00:14:35:16 00:14:37:00
line factors to be able to eat,

00:14:37:01 00:14:38:00
sleep and chase

00:14:39:00 00:14:41:10
your dreams. Those Are the changes

00:14:41:15 00:14:43:11
that can keep trans women off

00:14:43:12 00:14:45:06
the streets in housing, in

00:14:45:10 00:14:46:17
good health care, not just

00:14:47:06 00:14:48:01
visibility.

00:14:48:02 00:14:49:10
Still Diamond Stylz

00:14:50:04 00:14:52:03
has hope that legal protections

00:14:52:06 00:14:54:04
and anti-discrimination laws

00:14:54:14 00:14:56:15
can improve the lives

00:14:56:18 00:14:57:19
of people like

00:14:58:17 00:14:59:06
her.

00:14:59:07 00:15:00:16
You get people who are in the

00:15:00:18 00:15:02:22
trenches and in those back rooms

00:15:03:03 00:15:04:13
who are putting policies to work

00:15:04:14 00:15:06:07
that protect us and are not creating

00:15:06:16 00:15:08:08
this perpetual cycle where we don't

00:15:08:11 00:15:09:11
have the care.

00:15:10:09 00:15:11:21
But LaSaia Wade, the former

00:15:11:22 00:15:13:23
BellSouth employee, she says trans

00:15:13:24 00:15:15:08
people need to work outside the

00:15:15:09 00:15:16:04
system.

00:15:16:05 00:15:17:04
I want to see more

00:15:18:10 00:15:20:10
of us building our own will power.

00:15:20:21 00:15:22:15
Instead of trying to be a part of

00:15:22:20 00:15:23:20
their power. Assimilation ain't going
to do

00:15:27:01 00:15:28:01
nothing but try

00:15:28:25 00:15:31:16
to disempower

00:15:32:05 00:15:34:08
the trans community in a way of,

00:15:34:20 00:15:36:23
"oh, now we're part of society.

00:15:37:07 00:15:38:13
We need to forget about the

00:15:38:14 00:15:39:24
movement." And also, that's a

00:15:40:10 00:15:41:10
white lens.

00:15:42:12 00:15:44:25
We need to realize assimilation

00:15:45:07 00:15:47:01
is not healthy or good for the black

00:15:47:03 00:15:48:02
body, period.

00:15:48:03 00:15:49:03
It's never was.

00:15:50:09 00:15:51:09
It means death.

00:15:53:08 00:15:55:04
So what does it

00:15:55:05 00:15:57:01
look like for us to build our

00:15:57:02 00:15:58:02
own system?

00:15:58:03 00:15:59:13
What does it look like for us to

00:15:59:14 00:16:00:15
build our power?

00:16:00:16 00:16:02:05
What does it look like for us to

00:16:02:06 00:16:04:07
build our own methods of funds

00:16:04:08 00:16:06:03
that we tunnel back into our own

00:16:06:12 00:16:07:12
community?

00:16:09:02 00:16:10:21
What does it look like to build that

00:16:10:25 00:16:12:09
power ourselves?

00:16:15:21 00:16:17:13
To find out, we spoke with Gabriel

00:16:18:00 00:16:18:22
Foster.

00:16:18:23 00:16:20:01
After I dropped out of high school.

00:16:20:06 00:16:21:21
I know what I'm doing,

00:16:22:03 00:16:24:00
but I just dove in and I said

00:16:24:01 00:16:25:03
yes to everything.

00:16:26:22 00:16:28:01
That say yes to everything attitude
meant that Gabriel

00:16:29:19 00:16:32:03
was already a pretty seasoned

00:16:32:04 00:16:33:25
activist by the time he grew

00:16:34:00 00:16:35:16
up and moved to New York City.

00:16:36:03 00:16:38:04
But one day he was out in the middle

00:16:38:05 00:16:40:13
of a protest when he literally

00:16:40:17 00:16:41:17
ran into someone who

00:16:42:15 00:16:43:15
would change his whole world view.

00:16:43:16 00:16:45:01
We march today to show the depth of
the trans community solidarity and

00:16:45:02 00:16:46:14
commitment to end discrimination
against trans and gender
nonconforming

00:16:46:15 00:16:46:19
people now.

00:16:58:13 00:17:00:08
We were at the Trans Day of Action

00:17:00:17 00:17:02:09
March and rally, which happens every

00:17:02:10 00:17:04:04
year where like trans and non binary

00:17:04:10 00:17:06:05
folks and allies and queer folks and

00:17:06:06 00:17:08:01
lots of different people fill the

00:17:08:02 00:17:09:01
streets of New York.

00:17:09:02 00:17:10:06
What do we want? Trans Justice. When
do we want it? Now.

00:17:18:03 00:17:19:03
Like this woman named Karen
Pittelman,

00:17:19:17 00:17:20:24
she was trying to talk to me while

00:17:20:25 00:17:23:01
we were like marching really angry

00:17:23:10 00:17:25:02
carrying these signs around and like

00:17:25:14 00:17:26:17
there's a lot of feelings.

00:17:26:18 00:17:28:07
And she's like asking me she's like,

00:17:28:14 00:17:29:19
"I have an idea." And I was like,

00:17:29:20 00:17:31:03
"what?" She's like really trying to

00:17:31:04 00:17:32:12
have this convesation with me they
are really trying to have this

00:17:32:13 00:17:32:23
conversation with me.

00:17:32:24 00:17:34:12
And I'm like, what? I can't you

00:17:34:13 00:17:36:11
know, I couldn't give her my full

00:17:36:12 00:17:37:12
attention, you know?

00:17:41:02 00:17:42:17
And she's like, I just want I just

00:17:42:18 00:17:44:03
want to, like, put money into a

00:17:44:04 00:17:44:22
paper bag.

00:17:44:23 00:17:46:05
And drive around the country in a

00:17:46:06 00:17:47:16
van and give it to trans communities

00:17:48:02 00:17:49:10
money so they get the money more

00:17:49:11 00:17:50:11
directly.

00:17:50:15 00:17:51:18
And I was like, I don't

00:17:52:18 00:17:54:00
have any idea what you're talking

00:17:54:01 00:17:55:12
about. I had never heard of anyone

00:17:55:13 00:17:56:22
in my life talk about, like,

00:17:57:14 00:17:59:15
just giving trans people money.

00:18:11:16 00:18:13:09
So that was Gabriel's first meeting

00:18:13:10 00:18:14:10
with Karen Pittelman.

00:18:14:15 00:18:16:11
Karen Pittelman is a writer and poet

00:18:16:13 00:18:18:07
and the lead singer of Queer Country

00:18:18:08 00:18:19:15
Band - Karen and the Sorrows.

00:18:28:08 00:18:29:22
She's also part of a movement of

00:18:30:04 00:18:31:19
people working to give away their

00:18:31:24 00:18:32:25
inherited wealth.

00:18:33:07 00:18:34:18
And although Karen isn't trans

00:18:34:21 00:18:36:21
herself, she recognized that trans

00:18:36:22 00:18:38:10
people were on the frontlines of

00:18:38:11 00:18:40:08
social justice struggles, struggles

00:18:40:09 00:18:41:16
that she wanted to support.

00:18:42:07 00:18:44:01
So eventually, Gabriel and Karen did

00:18:44:07 00:18:46:05
have another conversation, this time

00:18:46:06 00:18:47:11
not in the middle of the march.

00:18:47:13 00:18:49:05
You know, I had no background

00:18:49:06 00:18:50:05
philanthropy, I think.

00:18:50:06 00:18:51:06
I didn't even know what that meant

00:18:51:07 00:18:52:07
for a long time.

00:18:52:14 00:18:53:16
But she was like, you worked with a

00:18:53:17 00:18:55:09
lot of communities and, you know,

00:18:55:10 00:18:56:17
folks kind of like around the

00:18:56:18 00:18:58:08
country. And then she brought her

00:18:58:11 00:19:00:10
checkbook. But she also brought

00:19:00:13 00:19:02:02
a lot of time and dedication and

00:19:02:05 00:19:04:02
worked for, I don't know,

00:19:04:09 00:19:06:09
60 to 80 hours a week for

00:19:06:17 00:19:07:19
at least three years.

00:19:12:11 00:19:13:20
And that's how the Trans Justice

00:19:13:21 00:19:15:00
Funding Project was born.

00:19:15:12 00:19:16:15
And, man, I am so proud

00:19:17:10 00:19:19:22
that I was able to work with Gabriel

00:19:19:25 00:19:22:12
and Karen because that idea

00:19:22:17 00:19:24:20
sparks something that would end

00:19:24:21 00:19:26:17
up supporting hundreds

00:19:26:21 00:19:29:04
and thousands of trans people

00:19:29:10 00:19:30:20
and organizations.

00:19:32:03 00:19:33:20
And now we are moving into our

00:19:33:24 00:19:34:22
eighth year.

00:19:34:23 00:19:36:09
The first year we made grants.

00:19:36:11 00:19:38:09
We were able to raise

00:19:38:10 00:19:39:23
a little over fifty five thousand.

00:19:41:13 00:19:43:01
Fifty five thousand dollars wouldn't

00:19:43:02 00:19:44:13
be a lot of money for big LGBT

00:19:44:20 00:19:45:23
rights organizations.

00:19:46:06 00:19:47:23
It's a tiny fraction of the budget

00:19:48:06 00:19:49:19
for a big mainstream organization

00:19:49:20 00:19:51:00
like the Human Rights Campaign.

00:19:51:09 00:19:52:22
You know, the organization that gave

00:19:52:23 00:19:54:05
out all those little yellow and blue

00:19:54:06 00:19:55:09
equal sign stickers.

00:19:55:21 00:19:57:17
But for trans organizations,

00:19:57:21 00:19:59:04
that's a lot of money.

00:19:59:16 00:20:01:14
And today, the Trans Justice

00:20:01:15 00:20:03:24
Funding Project has funded hundreds

00:20:04:02 00:20:05:16
of small budget trans lead

00:20:06:10 00:20:07:12
community groups.

00:20:08:01 00:20:10:05
The kind of groups that provide care

00:20:10:08 00:20:12:12
and support for trans migrants',

00:20:12:14 00:20:13:17
trans youth, indigenous

00:20:14:13 00:20:16:12
trans people, undocumented

00:20:16:13 00:20:18:23
trans people, trans veterans,

00:20:19:01 00:20:20:24
trans people of color, just

00:20:20:25 00:20:22:20
really all sorts of

00:20:22:21 00:20:24:20
trans gender identified

00:20:24:21 00:20:25:08
people.

00:20:25:09 00:20:27:18
Transcripts in Alabama and Texas

00:20:27:20 00:20:29:18
and Montana and South Carolina

00:20:29:24 00:20:31:07
have all gotten funding, too.

00:20:31:18 00:20:33:18
It's a big coordinated mutual

00:20:33:19 00:20:35:15
aid project where money goes to

00:20:35:16 00:20:37:13
those most in need outside

00:20:37:14 00:20:38:20
of the big non-profits.

00:20:39:08 00:20:40:16
And what's so beautiful

00:20:41:10 00:20:43:10
is that it is trans people

00:20:43:16 00:20:44:16
who choose who to

00:20:45:12 00:20:47:01
give that money away to.

00:20:47:22 00:20:49:10
We use community-like folks who are

00:20:49:11 00:20:51:12
actually doing this work every day.

00:20:51:24 00:20:53:23
As experts who know what's best

00:20:53:24 00:20:55:17
and allow them give them

00:20:55:25 00:20:57:21
the power to make decisions around

00:20:57:22 00:20:58:21
where money should go.

00:20:59:03 00:21:01:01
A staff I have no say about

00:21:01:10 00:21:02:23
where - where the money goes, which

00:21:02:24 00:21:04:03
is not easy.

00:21:04:11 00:21:06:05
But like, that's our that's our

00:21:06:06 00:21:07:11
politic. That's us practicing that

00:21:07:25 00:21:09:20
politic about it being fully

00:21:09:21 00:21:10:06
community lead.

00:21:10:07 00:21:12:02
But and unlike most

00:21:12:03 00:21:13:13
grant making organizations, the

00:21:13:14 00:21:14:22
Trans Justice Funding Project

00:21:14:23 00:21:15:22
doesn't just give money to

00:21:15:23 00:21:17:03
organizations with official

00:21:17:04 00:21:18:08
nonprofit status.

00:21:18:16 00:21:20:09
We know some of the most radical and

00:21:20:10 00:21:21:20
critical and amazing work doesn't

00:21:21:21 00:21:23:18
happen in offices

00:21:23:19 00:21:25:19
and doesn't happen because

00:21:25:20 00:21:26:24
the government says that should

00:21:27:00 00:21:27:23
happen.

00:21:27:24 00:21:29:15
Like people do a lot of work at

00:21:29:16 00:21:30:25
kitchen tables and community

00:21:31:12 00:21:33:01
centers and parks or whatever they

00:21:33:02 00:21:34:01
can meet.

00:21:34:05 00:21:35:12
And it doesn't have to be validated

00:21:35:13 00:21:37:01
by the government to matter.

00:21:37:17 00:21:39:20
In the absence of social services

00:21:40:02 00:21:41:15
and support from the mainstream

00:21:41:20 00:21:42:22
movement, trans people

00:21:43:23 00:21:45:11
of color are keeping each other

00:21:45:24 00:21:47:21
safe and are doing the

00:21:47:22 00:21:48:22
work.

00:21:51:03 00:21:52:08
Today, Diamond Stiles is

00:21:53:01 00:21:55:05
the executive director of Black

00:21:55:07 00:21:56:16
Trans Women Inc,

00:21:57:04 00:21:59:04
and she builds her work around

00:21:59:05 00:22:00:21
foundational black

00:22:01:05 00:22:02:16
feminist principles.

00:22:03:20 00:22:05:05
Black feminists have already

00:22:05:23 00:22:07:02
laid off foundations like this.

00:22:07:06 00:22:08:20
Black women have never had

00:22:09:04 00:22:10:19
a vision of liberation that didn't

00:22:10:22 00:22:11:22
include everybody.

00:22:12:10 00:22:15:00
If you built your policy

00:22:15:07 00:22:16:21
around caring for me, regardless

00:22:17:11 00:22:19:04
of what I've got going on, out of

00:22:19:05 00:22:20:20
all the things, out of all the

00:22:21:10 00:22:23:04
labels: trans, black

00:22:23:10 00:22:25:16
women, if I was disabled,

00:22:26:06 00:22:27:23
if I was positive, if you revolved

00:22:28:17 00:22:31:02
around caring about my humanity,

00:22:31:03 00:22:32:17
regardless of the label,

00:22:33:01 00:22:34:08
it just pulls everybody up.

00:22:35:21 00:22:36:23
Pulling everybody up.

00:22:37:09 00:22:38:24
It's a big task

00:22:39:18 00:22:41:06
and we don't know if we'll live to

00:22:41:07 00:22:42:13
see the end of things like

00:22:42:14 00:22:44:06
incarceration or policing.

00:22:44:20 00:22:46:02
But we can see glimpses of

00:22:46:11 00:22:47:22
liberation already

00:22:48:09 00:22:50:02
in the work that trans people are

00:22:50:03 00:22:52:00
doing right now.

00:22:52:22 00:22:54:04
Like in LaSaia Wade's new job.

00:22:54:24 00:22:56:06
After she was fired from BellSouth,

00:22:56:07 00:22:58:02
LaSaia began organizing a

00:22:58:03 00:22:59:19
direct action protest group in

00:22:59:20 00:23:01:15
Chicago called the Transgender

00:23:01:16 00:23:03:15
Liberation Collective, TLC.

00:23:04:01 00:23:05:05
It was a complete blackout.

00:23:05:22 00:23:07:14
No one wanted to say anything.

00:23:08:08 00:23:10:04
Everyone refused to say anything.

00:23:10:15 00:23:11:23
And I was angry.

00:23:12:07 00:23:13:07
I was angry.

00:23:13:09 00:23:14:13
I was livid.

00:23:14:14 00:23:15:14
Like you say, you

00:23:16:12 00:23:18:08
want liberation, but you

00:23:18:09 00:23:20:04
exclude trans people from that

00:23:20:05 00:23:21:08
liberation because you're not

00:23:21:09 00:23:23:09
talking about everyone's liberation.

00:23:23:18 00:23:25:15
You're talking about your liberation

00:23:25:18 00:23:27:14
and what your liberation looks like.

00:23:27:22 00:23:29:12
That's not what liberation is.

00:23:29:21 00:23:31:00
LaSaia was angry because

00:23:31:24 00:23:33:21
black trans women in Chicago

00:23:33:22 00:23:34:22
were being murdered.

00:23:35:14 00:23:37:14
She was angry because no

00:23:37:15 00:23:39:10
one was doing anything about it.

00:23:39:24 00:23:41:03
Not the city and not the

00:23:41:23 00:23:44:06
big white gay and lesbian

00:23:44:07 00:23:45:16
organizations either.

00:23:46:09 00:23:48:04
So TLC

00:23:48:05 00:23:49:09
said F*** this.

00:23:49:22 00:23:51:04
We need to step out and do

00:23:51:10 00:23:52:08
something.

00:23:52:09 00:23:53:22
They put together a march to call

00:23:53:23 00:23:55:08
attention to the murders of black

00:23:55:09 00:23:56:11
trans women in the city.

00:23:57:07 00:23:59:02
I'm getting chills right now because

00:24:00:22 00:24:03:00
the Midwest showed

00:24:03:04 00:24:05:13
up and showed out in Chicago.

00:24:06:04 00:24:08:07
We had over 2000 people

00:24:08:17 00:24:10:11
in downtown Chicago,

00:24:10:21 00:24:12:21
below zero degree weather

00:24:13:12 00:24:15:16
marching for trans people.

00:24:24:12 00:24:26:01
And that's where BSA was created.

00:24:26:02 00:24:27:01
That's

00:24:28:00 00:24:29:24
when we knew that BSA

00:24:30:01 00:24:31:15
needed to be in Chicago.

00:24:36:18 00:24:39:02
The BSA, the Brave

00:24:39:03 00:24:40:05
Space Alliance, that's

00:24:41:04 00:24:42:04
LaSaia's job now.

00:24:43:05 00:24:45:00
Running her own activism

00:24:45:02 00:24:46:22
organization in Chicago.

00:24:51:19 00:24:53:06
And then we started building.

00:24:59:11 00:25:01:09
Today, the Brave Space

00:25:01:12 00:25:02:24
Alliance is that black-lead

00:25:03:15 00:25:05:02
trans-lead LGBTQ

00:25:06:12 00:25:08:19
center located on Chicago's

00:25:08:20 00:25:09:20
South Side.

00:25:10:08 00:25:11:16
It holds events and support

00:25:12:07 00:25:14:08
groups, helps people find

00:25:14:09 00:25:15:17
jobs and get training

00:25:16:10 00:25:18:09
and even runs a free

00:25:18:10 00:25:19:16
produce program.

00:25:21:12 00:25:22:17
During the first few weeks of the

00:25:22:18 00:25:24:18
COVID-19 crisis, the Brave Space

00:25:24:19 00:25:26:09
Alliance delivered bags of food to

00:25:26:10 00:25:27:21
over a thousand households and

00:25:28:05 00:25:29:18
gave out over 40,000 dollars in

00:25:29:25 00:25:31:10
direct mutual aid through the

00:25:31:11 00:25:32:11
transfer relief fund.

00:25:33:03 00:25:34:13
And through all of this work.

00:25:34:23 00:25:37:09
LaSaia brings a clear

00:25:37:12 00:25:38:22
vision of the future.

00:25:39:12 00:25:40:12
To center trans

00:25:41:14 00:25:43:15
people through the leadership

00:25:43:16 00:25:44:19
of black and brown trans

00:25:45:12 00:25:46:12
people.

00:25:46:13 00:25:48:20
And then everyone else can come

00:25:48:21 00:25:50:07
and join the liberation.

00:25:50:19 00:25:52:10
It's worth saying, again, that's a

00:25:52:16 00:25:54:07
really different strategy than the

00:25:54:12 00:25:56:15
mainstream LGBT movements have used.

00:25:57:09 00:25:58:21
Those movements, mostly led by

00:25:58:22 00:26:00:13
white, wealthier people, are built

00:26:00:23 00:26:02:06
on the idea of finding LGBT

00:26:02:19 00:26:04:06
people who are most like other

00:26:04:07 00:26:05:03
people in power.

00:26:05:04 00:26:07:02
Except for this one difference.

00:26:07:15 00:26:09:12
But what Black Trans

00:26:09:13 00:26:10:12
Women Inc and Brave

00:26:11:08 00:26:13:08
Space Alliance are doing,

00:26:13:15 00:26:15:16
centering the most marginalized

00:26:15:18 00:26:16:18
in your activism?

00:26:17:04 00:26:18:12
It isn't just theory.

00:26:19:02 00:26:20:11
It's happening now.

00:26:22:10 00:26:23:16
And it's already changing

00:26:24:06 00:26:25:13
the world around us.

00:26:26:19 00:26:28:07
So these days, LaSaia

00:26:28:20 00:26:30:24
it isn't angry anymore.

00:26:31:19 00:26:33:14
A lot of people look at

00:26:33:15 00:26:34:16
me like, "why are you smiling.

00:26:35:09 00:26:36:20
Ain't you supposed to be angry?" But

00:26:37:03 00:26:38:00
I'm next to you.

00:26:38:01 00:26:39:06
Why? I need to be angry.

00:26:39:21 00:26:40:22
Why I need to be sad about it.

00:26:41:07 00:26:43:06
I need to figure out this particular

00:26:43:07 00:26:45:07
type of joy that

00:26:45:09 00:26:46:17
I'm feeling in this particular

00:26:46:18 00:26:48:00
moment because I'm standing

00:26:48:18 00:26:50:04
beside someone

00:26:50:20 00:26:51:22
that probably wouldn't have even been
able to stand

00:26:52:03 00:26:53:03
beside.

00:26:53:24 00:26:55:05
Because in this particular madness,

00:26:56:18 00:26:57:22
I'm connected to you.

00:27:07:12 00:27:08:25
This has been part of the pilot from

00:27:08:26 00:27:10:12
the groundbreaking new podcast

00:27:10:18 00:27:11:18
Transcripts.

00:27:12:06 00:27:14:05
The Lead Producer of Transcripts is

00:27:15:14 00:27:17:01
Cassius Adair. Myrl Beam is the

00:27:17:02 00:27:19:09
senior project scholar and producer.

00:27:19:15 00:27:21:02
Rachel Mattson is the managing

00:27:21:07 00:27:22:07
producer.

00:27:22:12 00:27:23:17
Myra Billund-Phibbs is the

00:27:23:18 00:27:24:23
production assistant.

00:27:25:08 00:27:26:19
Sound design is by Ariana

00:27:27:04 00:27:29:04
Martinez, Musical Direction

00:27:29:05 00:27:30:05
by Casper.

00:27:30:11 00:27:32:15
You heard music by Juniper Gray

00:27:32:16 00:27:33:15
and Carlx.

00:27:34:07 00:27:35:15
For more about Transcripts.

00:27:35:16 00:27:36:16
Go to

00:27:39:01 00:27:40:00
bit.LY/transcriptpod.

00:27:40:01 00:27:42:06
The Transcripts Podcast is a project

00:27:42:07 00:27:44:02
of the Tretter Transgender

00:27:44:05 00:27:46:05
Oral History Project based

00:27:46:06 00:27:47:07
at the University of Minnesota

00:27:47:08 00:27:48:07
Libraries.

00:27:49:06 00:27:50:11
Funding came from the TAWANI

00:27:50:19 00:27:52:21
Foundation and the Minnesota

00:27:52:22 00:27:54:18
Humanities Innovation Lab.

00:27:55:02 00:27:56:14
This is With Good Reason.

00:27:56:18 00:27:57:18
We'll be right back.

00:28:05:09 00:28:06:17
Welcome back to With Good Reason

00:28:06:18 00:28:08:16
from Virginia Humanities.

00:28:10:07 00:28:12:05
Hate crimes against LGBTQ+

00:28:13:04 00:28:15:12
people in America are on the rise

00:28:15:18 00:28:17:20
and victims often don't feel safe

00:28:17:21 00:28:19:00
getting help afterward.

00:28:19:13 00:28:21:20
Eli Costin is a sociologist

00:28:21:21 00:28:23:20
at Virginia Commonwealth University

00:28:24:05 00:28:26:09
who studies anti LGBTQ+

00:28:27:00 00:28:28:00
hate crimes.

00:28:28:05 00:28:29:17
They got interested in the subject

00:28:29:18 00:28:31:15
while doing research in New York

00:28:31:16 00:28:32:15
City.

00:28:33:09 00:28:34:21
There had been a series of hate

00:28:34:22 00:28:36:10
crimes that occurred in the West

00:28:36:16 00:28:37:25
Village in New York City.

00:28:38:14 00:28:40:00
And the last one culminated in

00:28:40:11 00:28:42:02
the murder of Mark Carson, who was

00:28:42:10 00:28:43:10
a gay man.

00:28:43:12 00:28:45:07
And the West Village is

00:28:45:10 00:28:46:14
the gay spot in New York

00:28:47:08 00:28:48:04
City.

00:28:48:05 00:28:49:20
It has the gay bars, all the

00:28:49:21 00:28:50:20
restaurants.

00:28:50:24 00:28:52:12
There are gay flags everywhere.

00:28:53:02 00:28:55:00
How does this happen in

00:28:55:12 00:28:57:10
a place like New York City,

00:28:57:14 00:28:59:01
in the gay district, in what's

00:28:59:12 00:29:01:04
supposed to be one of the most gay

00:29:01:06 00:29:02:19
friendly places in the country?

00:29:03:09 00:29:05:12
And I had to know more

00:29:05:14 00:29:06:14
about why.

00:29:06:20 00:29:08:10
How old were you when this happened?

00:29:08:18 00:29:10:07
I think I was about 27 when this

00:29:10:15 00:29:11:13
happened.

00:29:11:14 00:29:12:25
Was it the first time you were

00:29:13:00 00:29:14:23
actually afraid to be

00:29:15:13 00:29:16:24
out in public?

00:29:17:01 00:29:18:18
Was it the first time you realized

00:29:19:13 00:29:20:22
it could happen to me?

00:29:21:10 00:29:23:07
No, actually, the first time I

00:29:23:08 00:29:24:19
realized it could happen to me

00:29:25:04 00:29:27:00
was when I was

00:29:27:04 00:29:28:18
in a shopping mall.

00:29:28:24 00:29:31:01
When I was 16 years

00:29:31:02 00:29:31:23
old.

00:29:31:24 00:29:33:05
Somebody looked across the

00:29:33:16 00:29:35:11
escalator. They were going down.

00:29:35:14 00:29:37:20
I was going up and they

00:29:37:23 00:29:39:20
yelled a homophobic slur at me

00:29:39:21 00:29:41:06
and ran down the escalator.

00:29:41:07 00:29:42:14
And I ran up and I hid.

00:29:43:13 00:29:44:13
I was terrified.

00:29:44:16 00:29:46:09
I didn't know what that person would

00:29:46:10 00:29:47:15
do to me if they found me.

00:29:48:07 00:29:50:13
And it was just my physical

00:29:50:14 00:29:52:02
presence. I wasn't holding hands

00:29:52:03 00:29:54:11
with anyone, wasn't kissing anyone.

00:29:55:04 00:29:56:11
I just looked a particular

00:29:57:12 00:29:59:08
way that this person inferred that

00:29:59:09 00:30:00:08
I was gay.

00:30:00:10 00:30:01:17
Do you think it changed your

00:30:01:18 00:30:03:04
behavior after that?

00:30:03:16 00:30:04:20
No, not mine.

00:30:04:23 00:30:06:11
I think it changes many people's

00:30:06:12 00:30:07:11
behavior, though.

00:30:08:06 00:30:10:06
A lot of people go back

00:30:10:07 00:30:11:07
into the closet.

00:30:11:19 00:30:13:18
A lot of people decide that

00:30:13:22 00:30:15:03
when they're out in public, they

00:30:15:04 00:30:16:12
won't hold hands, that they won't

00:30:16:13 00:30:17:13
kiss their partner.

00:30:17:24 00:30:19:21
You know, they live their public

00:30:19:22 00:30:21:22
lives as friends and their private

00:30:21:23 00:30:22:22
lives as partners.

00:30:23:08 00:30:25:01
Having to hide that is horrible.

00:30:25:07 00:30:26:12
People shouldn't have to hide their

00:30:26:13 00:30:27:12
relationships.

00:30:27:20 00:30:29:17
It wasn't long after this

00:30:29:18 00:30:31:19
murder and the string of hate crimes

00:30:32:02 00:30:34:00
in New York City that you became

00:30:34:01 00:30:35:21
involved with an anti-hate

00:30:36:08 00:30:37:11
crime task force in New

00:30:38:05 00:30:39:03
York.

00:30:39:04 00:30:40:15
Yes. So the New York City Anti

00:30:41:04 00:30:43:00
Violence Project, one of

00:30:43:01 00:30:45:02
the things that we were trying to do

00:30:45:03 00:30:47:08
was get curriculum instituted

00:30:47:09 00:30:48:22
in the New York City public schools,

00:30:49:01 00:30:51:04
anti-bullying curriculum,

00:30:51:13 00:30:53:18
because most defenders

00:30:53:21 00:30:55:11
of hate crimes are younger.

00:30:55:13 00:30:56:13
They're thrill seeking.

00:30:56:21 00:30:57:21
They happen to see

00:30:58:17 00:31:00:07
somebody kissing or holding hands

00:31:00:09 00:31:02:05
and tell one of their friends,

00:31:02:12 00:31:03:18
oh, hey, let's go mess with those

00:31:03:19 00:31:04:15
people.

00:31:04:16 00:31:06:05
It's not that people are going out

00:31:06:06 00:31:08:00
intending "I'm going to go commit a

00:31:08:01 00:31:09:18
hate crime today," which

00:31:09:21 00:31:11:08
kind of makes it even scarier.

00:31:11:15 00:31:12:22
Did you all have much success trying

00:31:12:23 00:31:14:07
to get this sort of curriculum,

00:31:14:09 00:31:15:22
anti-bullying in the New York

00:31:15:23 00:31:16:22
schools?

00:31:17:02 00:31:18:20
We weren't actually successful while

00:31:18:21 00:31:20:12
I was there, but subsequently that

00:31:20:16 00:31:22:04
actually has been implemented.

00:31:22:05 00:31:24:01
So I'm very happy

00:31:24:02 00:31:24:24
for that.

00:31:25:00 00:31:26:07
I know that I've talked to state

00:31:26:08 00:31:28:04
legislators here about trying to get

00:31:28:13 00:31:30:07
similar legislation passed in

00:31:30:08 00:31:31:19
Virginia so that it would be a

00:31:31:22 00:31:33:08
requirement in schools.

00:31:33:11 00:31:35:02
That requires also teaching about

00:31:35:03 00:31:37:02
LGBT people to school

00:31:37:03 00:31:37:23
aged children.

00:31:37:24 00:31:39:10
And there's some resistance to that,

00:31:39:11 00:31:40:11
unfortunately.

00:31:40:13 00:31:41:17
Still in Virginia,.

00:31:41:21 00:31:42:21
Still in Virginia.

00:31:43:13 00:31:44:23
It must have been so interesting to

00:31:44:24 00:31:46:15
come from a state that had been more

00:31:46:16 00:31:48:09
progressive on this issue to come to

00:31:48:11 00:31:49:19
a state without.

00:31:50:09 00:31:52:03
Yeah, it has been interesting.

00:31:52:05 00:31:54:07
For example, there is not

00:31:54:09 00:31:56:11
hate crimes legislation that covers

00:31:56:12 00:31:58:05
sexual orientation in Virginia.

00:31:58:10 00:31:59:10
And there is in New York?

00:31:59:18 00:32:00:18
There is in New York.

00:32:00:20 00:32:02:18
Does that make a difference whether

00:32:02:20 00:32:04:03
a state has anti hate crime

00:32:04:16 00:32:05:16
legislation?

00:32:05:24 00:32:07:05
It doesn't actually make a

00:32:07:08 00:32:09:04
difference in the rates

00:32:09:05 00:32:11:00
of victimization, but it

00:32:11:01 00:32:12:21
does send an important message to

00:32:12:22 00:32:14:14
people that this is where our values

00:32:14:15 00:32:16:21
lie, that LGBT people

00:32:16:22 00:32:18:13
are worthy of dignity, that they're

00:32:18:14 00:32:19:21
worthy of respect, that they're

00:32:19:22 00:32:21:05
worthy of the same rights as

00:32:21:06 00:32:22:06
everyone else.

00:32:22:13 00:32:24:05
Types of legislation like same sex

00:32:24:14 00:32:26:07
marriage passing actually decreased

00:32:26:24 00:32:28:12
rates of hate crime victimization

00:32:28:13 00:32:29:23
because LGBT people were seen

00:32:30:12 00:32:31:12
as equals.

00:32:31:22 00:32:33:03
That's interesting. So now

00:32:33:04 00:32:34:09
nationally, with same sex

00:32:35:03 00:32:36:19
marriage legislation across the

00:32:36:20 00:32:38:12
board, are we seeing a reduction in

00:32:38:17 00:32:39:16
hate crimes?

00:32:39:17 00:32:41:18
Well, that's a complicated question,

00:32:41:20 00:32:42:17
actually.

00:32:42:18 00:32:44:15
There's been a slight increase

00:32:44:16 00:32:46:16
in hate crimes since about 2012.

00:32:47:03 00:32:49:10
And so that's disturbing.

00:32:49:20 00:32:51:17
But when we look at

00:32:51:19 00:32:53:12
the implementation of same sex

00:32:53:13 00:32:55:13
marriage, when same sex marriage

00:32:55:14 00:32:57:16
was implemented in various states

00:32:57:24 00:32:59:24
at different times, it reduced

00:33:00:00 00:33:01:01
the rates of anti LGBT

00:33:01:24 00:33:03:17
hate crimes in those states.

00:33:04:05 00:33:06:04
Again, this idea that saying

00:33:06:06 00:33:08:02
LGBT people are equal,

00:33:08:03 00:33:10:01
they have rights, they are valuable.

00:33:10:05 00:33:11:12
It humanizes people.

00:33:11:21 00:33:13:12
And it means that people are less

00:33:13:20 00:33:15:12
likely to target and victimize them.

00:33:16:13 00:33:18:01
What are you working on now with

00:33:18:03 00:33:19:17
anti violence in this regard?

00:33:20:17 00:33:21:25
Well, I think one of the biggest

00:33:21:26 00:33:23:05
problems is actually that

00:33:23:21 00:33:25:13
people aren't seeking help

00:33:25:22 00:33:27:02
after they're victimized.

00:33:27:11 00:33:28:23
Less than half of people go to the

00:33:28:24 00:33:30:24
police after a hate crime

00:33:30:25 00:33:32:11
because they're afraid of being

00:33:32:12 00:33:33:11
re-victimized.

00:33:33:21 00:33:35:04
They're afraid of being outed.

00:33:35:16 00:33:37:12
They're afraid the police will treat

00:33:37:13 00:33:38:12
them poorly.

00:33:38:21 00:33:40:07
There's also a

00:33:40:16 00:33:42:09
real problem with lack of follow up

00:33:42:10 00:33:43:21
care. Hate crimes

00:33:44:06 00:33:45:06
take a toll physically.

00:33:45:23 00:33:47:19
They're often more violent

00:33:47:22 00:33:48:23
than nonbiased crimes

00:33:49:18 00:33:50:18
and

00:33:51:22 00:33:53:11
only about 15 percent of victims

00:33:53:24 00:33:54:24
seek medical care post

00:33:55:12 00:33:56:12
victimization.

00:33:56:19 00:33:58:18
Because, again, they're afraid

00:33:58:19 00:34:00:04
of experiencing homophobia or

00:34:00:11 00:34:02:14
transphobia from medical providers.

00:34:02:20 00:34:04:19
Are there a lot of people who are

00:34:04:21 00:34:06:22
out and out to their friends

00:34:06:23 00:34:08:10
and out in their lifestyle, but

00:34:08:19 00:34:10:15
not out to, let's say,

00:34:10:16 00:34:12:08
talking to a police officer or

00:34:12:09 00:34:13:12
talking to a medical health

00:34:13:13 00:34:14:22
professional, et cetera?

00:34:15:21 00:34:17:19
Absolutely. And there are

00:34:17:21 00:34:18:22
large numbers of LGBT

00:34:19:17 00:34:21:16
people who are not out to

00:34:21:18 00:34:23:14
even their primary care physicians.

00:34:24:00 00:34:25:04
Many people don't tell their

00:34:25:05 00:34:26:04
doctors.

00:34:26:14 00:34:28:18
Many doctors also aren't asking.

00:34:29:03 00:34:30:14
That's also a problem because

00:34:31:07 00:34:32:23
this is critical information needed

00:34:32:24 00:34:33:25
to treat a person.

00:34:34:11 00:34:36:09
Trans people often, if they go

00:34:36:10 00:34:38:08
to the doctor for something else,

00:34:38:16 00:34:40:01
will not tell the doctor that

00:34:40:02 00:34:41:11
they're trans because then

00:34:41:20 00:34:43:05
everything comes back to the fact

00:34:43:06 00:34:44:05
that they're trans.

00:34:44:06 00:34:45:07
What do you mean everything comes

00:34:45:08 00:34:46:09
back, that they're trans?

00:34:46:22 00:34:48:15
So there's this phrase called trans

00:34:48:19 00:34:49:24
broken arm syndrome.

00:34:50:04 00:34:51:13
And essentially,

00:34:52:01 00:34:53:14
if you are trans and you go to the

00:34:53:15 00:34:55:14
doctor with a broken arm, they're

00:34:55:15 00:34:57:04
going to somehow relate it

00:34:57:14 00:34:59:03
to the fact that you're transgender,

00:34:59:12 00:35:00:11
not the fact that you had an

00:35:00:12 00:35:01:18
accident and broke your arm.

00:35:02:05 00:35:03:17
It comes from lack of knowledge.

00:35:03:20 00:35:05:16
Quite frankly, it's

00:35:05:17 00:35:07:08
the same type of, you know, stigma

00:35:07:09 00:35:09:04
hat overweight people

00:35:09:06 00:35:10:18
face when they go to the doctor,

00:35:11:00 00:35:12:22
right? Every health concern is

00:35:12:23 00:35:14:04
linked back to their weight.

00:35:14:14 00:35:15:15
Is there training for medical

00:35:15:16 00:35:17:10
professionals that is going on in

00:35:17:11 00:35:19:10
medical schools and other areas?

00:35:19:23 00:35:21:15
There are trainings that go on in

00:35:21:16 00:35:23:02
medical schools and in nursing

00:35:23:03 00:35:23:23
schools.

00:35:23:24 00:35:25:20
But the number of hours is

00:35:25:22 00:35:27:02
relatively limited.

00:35:27:12 00:35:29:10
Nationally, the average hours of

00:35:29:11 00:35:31:13
cultural competency training for

00:35:31:22 00:35:33:11
medical school students is eight

00:35:33:12 00:35:34:12
hours.

00:35:34:13 00:35:36:18
And that's covering all types

00:35:36:20 00:35:37:23
of diversity.

00:35:37:24 00:35:39:19
So race,

00:35:39:21 00:35:42:01
gender, LGBT issues.

00:35:42:04 00:35:44:05
And that's simply not enough.

00:35:44:21 00:35:46:12
What about police encounters?

00:35:46:21 00:35:48:22
Are police trained in this regard?

00:35:49:14 00:35:51:18
There are often trainings

00:35:51:19 00:35:52:18
for officers in LGBT

00:35:54:02 00:35:55:02
competencies.

00:35:55:13 00:35:57:11
For example, in Richmond,

00:35:57:14 00:35:59:13
there is an LGBT

00:35:59:14 00:36:00:15
police liaison.

00:36:01:04 00:36:02:10
Police cadets

00:36:03:00 00:36:05:02
also meet with a panel of LGBT

00:36:05:03 00:36:06:01
people.

00:36:06:02 00:36:07:21
But I think that's only about an

00:36:07:22 00:36:08:20
hour.

00:36:08:21 00:36:11:02
And so, again, how

00:36:11:16 00:36:12:24
deep are you really going?

00:36:13:08 00:36:14:07
How much are you really

00:36:14:08 00:36:15:07
understanding?

00:36:16:01 00:36:17:22
What is the danger of

00:36:17:23 00:36:19:18
police not really being

00:36:19:19 00:36:21:01
educated in this field?

00:36:21:12 00:36:23:06
Well, one of the big things people

00:36:23:07 00:36:25:05
face is that in New

00:36:25:06 00:36:26:11
York City, for example, I

00:36:27:01 00:36:28:13
often heard trans people being

00:36:28:25 00:36:30:00
stopped by police and

00:36:30:21 00:36:32:10
then if their

00:36:32:24 00:36:34:08
I.D. wasn't updated.

00:36:34:09 00:36:36:06
The police officers wouldn't

00:36:36:07 00:36:37:16
use their preferred name.

00:36:37:25 00:36:39:08
They would use their legal name,

00:36:39:09 00:36:40:19
which can be very damaging to a

00:36:40:20 00:36:42:16
person and the

00:36:42:17 00:36:44:07
way that people are searched.

00:36:44:21 00:36:46:11
Trans women should not be frisked

00:36:46:24 00:36:48:13
in the same way by a male police

00:36:48:14 00:36:50:15
officer that a man

00:36:50:16 00:36:52:11
would be. Nobody calls the female

00:36:52:13 00:36:54:10
officer for a trans woman to be

00:36:54:11 00:36:55:10
frisked.

00:36:55:14 00:36:57:24
A male officer just does it himself.

00:36:58:10 00:36:59:24
These were important areas where

00:37:00:09 00:37:01:19
we could be treating people with

00:37:01:20 00:37:02:19
more dignity.

00:37:03:18 00:37:05:15
What also about dealing with

00:37:05:22 00:37:07:17
crimes against trans people

00:37:08:01 00:37:10:00
and the relationship they have with

00:37:10:01 00:37:11:07
police in that regard?

00:37:11:21 00:37:13:06
Well, this is one of the reasons

00:37:13:07 00:37:14:21
people primarily don't report is

00:37:15:02 00:37:16:07
because especially trans

00:37:17:02 00:37:18:11
people have so many negative

00:37:18:13 00:37:19:22
interactions with the police

00:37:19:23 00:37:20:22
already.

00:37:20:23 00:37:22:16
Going to the police is probably not

00:37:22:18 00:37:23:14
going to help you.

00:37:23:15 00:37:25:18
Almost a quarter of

00:37:26:03 00:37:27:17
reports in New York City

00:37:28:05 00:37:29:22
when people said they went to try to

00:37:29:23 00:37:31:12
file a police report about a hate

00:37:31:21 00:37:32:21
crime.

00:37:32:22 00:37:34:09
We're told we can't do anything.

00:37:34:10 00:37:35:10
We can't help you.

00:37:35:12 00:37:36:14
The police didn't even take the

00:37:36:15 00:37:37:01
report.

00:37:37:02 00:37:38:07
Why would they not?

00:37:39:00 00:37:40:23
You know, I really can tell you,

00:37:41:04 00:37:42:20
I think it's probably homophobia.

00:37:42:25 00:37:44:12
I think it's probably transphobia.

00:37:45:02 00:37:47:01
I think it's that there are some

00:37:47:02 00:37:48:19
people that the police don't want to

00:37:48:20 00:37:49:12
help.

00:37:49:13 00:37:51:18
Do you think there's more homophobia

00:37:51:19 00:37:53:24
and transphobia among police

00:37:54:00 00:37:55:20
officers than the general public?

00:37:56:24 00:37:58:13
I think that police officers,

00:37:59:05 00:38:00:15
just like the military, like

00:38:01:08 00:38:03:09
things to be nice and neat

00:38:03:11 00:38:04:11
and orderly.

00:38:04:21 00:38:06:05
Things should fit into

00:38:07:00 00:38:08:07
neat little boxes and LGBT

00:38:09:11 00:38:10:19
people don't always conform

00:38:11:16 00:38:12:18
to those boxes.

00:38:13:06 00:38:15:03
You see this happening in schools,

00:38:15:04 00:38:16:00
too.

00:38:16:01 00:38:17:05
LGBT youth are much more

00:38:17:24 00:38:19:20
likely to be referred to police

00:38:19:21 00:38:21:25
for bad behavior in school.

00:38:22:01 00:38:23:05
Disruption, disobedience

00:38:24:05 00:38:26:10
or talking back to a teacher

00:38:26:11 00:38:27:10
or things that we

00:38:28:10 00:38:30:06
wouldn't normally think of as crime.

00:38:30:08 00:38:31:19
But youth are actually referred to

00:38:31:20 00:38:32:23
the police for these things.

00:38:32:24 00:38:34:10
And what we find is that LGBT

00:38:35:02 00:38:36:04
youth, especially LGBT

00:38:37:15 00:38:39:22
youth of color, are most

00:38:39:23 00:38:41:17
often reported for these things.

00:38:42:22 00:38:44:23
Thank you for sharing your insights

00:38:44:24 00:38:45:23
and With Good Reason.

00:38:46:07 00:38:47:07
Thank you.

00:38:51:10 00:38:52:15
Eli Costin is a professor

00:38:53:09 00:38:54:23
of gender, sexuality and women's

00:38:55:07 00:38:56:21
studies at Virginia Commonwealth

00:38:57:02 00:38:58:02
University.

00:38:59:06 00:39:01:07
Coming up next, coming out

00:39:01:10 00:39:03:06
or coming in as queer in

00:39:03:07 00:39:04:06
the Middle East?

00:39:06:08 00:39:08:04
Last year saw the publication of

00:39:08:05 00:39:09:12
the new Global Encyclopedia

00:39:10:11 00:39:12:12
of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual,

00:39:12:13 00:39:14:14
Transgender and Queer History.

00:39:15:01 00:39:16:10
The University of Virginia's

00:39:17:11 00:39:18:21
Hanadi Al-Samman coordinated the

00:39:18:22 00:39:20:23
Middle East entries from

00:39:21:00 00:39:23:05
pinkwashing to masculinity

00:39:23:06 00:39:24:13
in Iranian cinema.

00:39:27:04 00:39:28:18
I think it's important for us to

00:39:28:19 00:39:30:25
know that the LGBT

00:39:31:22 00:39:33:22
groups is

00:39:34:01 00:39:35:03
not a new

00:39:36:10 00:39:38:07
experience to the Middle East.

00:39:38:24 00:39:40:24
They have existed from time

00:39:40:25 00:39:41:25
immemorial.

00:39:42:14 00:39:44:03
What is the range of experiences

00:39:44:10 00:39:45:10
in the Middle East?

00:39:45:14 00:39:47:09
So the range of experiences

00:39:47:10 00:39:49:04
that we have, laws that

00:39:49:05 00:39:50:24
would dictate death penalty in

00:39:51:00 00:39:52:20
countries such as Saudi Arabia

00:39:52:21 00:39:53:21
or Iran for LGBT

00:39:54:20 00:39:57:06
members to short imprisonment

00:39:57:08 00:39:59:09
or harassment in places like

00:39:59:10 00:40:00:20
Egypt, Jordan.

00:40:01:06 00:40:02:17
And then there are places that are

00:40:02:18 00:40:04:22
accepted, kind of, such as Turkey

00:40:04:23 00:40:05:22
or Lebanon.

00:40:06:01 00:40:08:05
Is the gay culture relatively

00:40:08:06 00:40:09:16
hidden in most Middle Eastern

00:40:10:04 00:40:11:04
countries?

00:40:11:09 00:40:13:02
Yes, they often operate

00:40:13:24 00:40:14:24
under the table.

00:40:15:08 00:40:16:14
They are known to a select

00:40:17:05 00:40:18:05
few.

00:40:18:08 00:40:20:04
Most of the times their families

00:40:20:05 00:40:21:05
are aware of it.

00:40:21:09 00:40:22:16
Their intimate friends are

00:40:23:07 00:40:25:15
aware of it, but not necessarily

00:40:26:05 00:40:27:05
they are out in

00:40:28:02 00:40:29:21
the open. Nor do they want to be out

00:40:30:02 00:40:31:02
in the open.

00:40:31:05 00:40:33:04
Well the penalty is so huge.

00:40:34:01 00:40:35:19
Yes, Sarah, the penalty is huge,

00:40:36:02 00:40:38:03
but not just the legal penalty.

00:40:38:04 00:40:39:03
I think the cost of

00:40:40:01 00:40:42:04
loss of family connection

00:40:42:17 00:40:44:13
is important as something that

00:40:44:21 00:40:46:10
LGBT people cherish.

00:40:46:16 00:40:48:03
There is a range of experiences

00:40:48:16 00:40:50:11
where you may find families that are

00:40:50:12 00:40:51:17
accepting and loving, but

00:40:52:10 00:40:54:14
then there are families who are

00:40:54:15 00:40:55:22
totally unaccepting.

00:40:55:23 00:40:57:21
And then you would see, for example,

00:40:57:22 00:40:59:04
a teen maybe coming out to

00:40:59:19 00:41:01:09
his mom, but not to his dad.

00:41:02:06 00:41:04:12
And so in that sense,

00:41:04:16 00:41:06:02
they are having

00:41:06:14 00:41:08:11
a little bit of a support group

00:41:08:12 00:41:10:01
by coming out to a select few in

00:41:10:08 00:41:12:06
an intimate circle, but not to

00:41:12:07 00:41:13:14
the whole world, because coming out

00:41:13:15 00:41:15:10
to the whole world really carries a

00:41:15:11 00:41:17:09
lot of risk, not just legally,

00:41:17:10 00:41:19:06
but also, as I said, in the

00:41:19:07 00:41:21:08
loss of the familial ties.

00:41:21:15 00:41:23:08
That is so important not just to

00:41:23:09 00:41:25:04
LGBT people, but to every

00:41:25:16 00:41:27:15
Middle Eastern or Arab citizen.

00:41:28:03 00:41:30:11
There is in the Queer Encyclopedia,

00:41:30:14 00:41:31:22
an entry called Coming Out,

00:41:32:13 00:41:34:18
Coming in in the Middle East.

00:41:35:09 00:41:36:14
What is addressed there?

00:41:37:18 00:41:39:07
So I'm calling it "Coming In"

00:41:39:08 00:41:41:06
because this coming in

00:41:41:09 00:41:43:11
basically highlights the fact

00:41:43:12 00:41:45:01
that they want to be embraced by

00:41:45:02 00:41:46:02
their family.

00:41:46:06 00:41:48:04
They want to still reside

00:41:48:10 00:41:50:02
within the context of their family.

00:41:50:03 00:41:51:17
So if you think of the closet as an

00:41:51:19 00:41:54:06
image, it's not an oppressive

00:41:54:14 00:41:56:12
closet, as we understand

00:41:56:13 00:41:57:24
it in the Western sense.

00:41:58:00 00:41:59:25
Rather, it's a loving

00:42:00:02 00:42:01:23
or a sanctuary closet

00:42:02:05 00:42:04:06
because it still has

00:42:04:07 00:42:05:19
the family members

00:42:06:02 00:42:07:18
that understand you and care for you

00:42:07:21 00:42:09:13
as a loving entity

00:42:09:19 00:42:11:08
who can again, you can come into

00:42:11:19 00:42:12:19
their embrace.

00:42:12:25 00:42:14:17
And I think it's really important

00:42:14:18 00:42:15:22
for us to listen to what

00:42:16:15 00:42:17:18
they want to tell us.

00:42:18:01 00:42:19:24
Listen to how they want to define

00:42:20:00 00:42:21:07
their experience as opposed

00:42:21:21 00:42:24:07
to, you know, LGBT groups

00:42:24:08 00:42:26:13
and NGOs from from

00:42:26:17 00:42:28:09
the West telling them what they need

00:42:28:10 00:42:29:14
to do.

00:42:30:16 00:42:32:06
Do LGBTQ leaders in the West and

00:42:32:15 00:42:33:24
NGO's lecture

00:42:34:13 00:42:36:09
Middle Eastern gay people

00:42:36:11 00:42:37:21
on coming out of the closet?

00:42:38:00 00:42:39:07
That's a great question, Sarah.

00:42:39:08 00:42:41:11
I think they do, because they

00:42:42:06 00:42:43:18
they have an understanding that you

00:42:43:19 00:42:45:19
can only define your LGBT

00:42:45:20 00:42:47:18
status in the coming out

00:42:47:19 00:42:48:15
process.

00:42:48:16 00:42:49:21
So often times these NGOs

00:42:51:02 00:42:52:08
have the financial support

00:42:53:01 00:42:54:11
to have the logistic and like

00:42:54:23 00:42:56:12
the Know-How of how to gain

00:42:56:13 00:42:58:10
visibility and they

00:42:58:11 00:42:59:20
condition this on, "you have

00:43:00:09 00:43:01:24
to follow the path of what we are

00:43:01:25 00:43:03:09
telling you." Sometimes this

00:43:03:23 00:43:05:19
is to the detriment and

00:43:05:21 00:43:07:12
at a great risk to Middle Eastern

00:43:07:20 00:43:08:14
LGBT.

00:43:08:15 00:43:10:01
You could be jailed or killed.

00:43:10:05 00:43:11:01
You could be jailed.

00:43:11:02 00:43:12:16
You could be killed, for example,

00:43:13:03 00:43:14:21
in ICE during ISIS times.

00:43:15:03 00:43:16:23
Some LGBT members who were

00:43:16:24 00:43:17:24
outed forcefully by

00:43:18:23 00:43:20:10
their family or friends

00:43:20:19 00:43:22:02
were punished greatly, were

00:43:22:15 00:43:24:17
killed, thrown away from rooftops.

00:43:25:09 00:43:26:16
In this sense, the coming out

00:43:26:17 00:43:27:19
process carries a great

00:43:28:12 00:43:29:20
risk - death.

00:43:30:17 00:43:32:08
You also refer to something called

00:43:32:09 00:43:34:04
double refugees, that

00:43:34:12 00:43:35:15
people who flee ISIS or

00:43:36:08 00:43:38:04
flee repressive regimes

00:43:38:15 00:43:40:10
to have more freedom in

00:43:40:11 00:43:42:07
their LGBTQ lifestyle

00:43:42:14 00:43:45:01
in other countries are further

00:43:45:02 00:43:46:24
discriminated against in spite of

00:43:47:00 00:43:48:15
what they believed would be a safe

00:43:48:21 00:43:49:21
haven.

00:43:49:22 00:43:50:22
Yes. So

00:43:51:20 00:43:53:23
the LGBT is who became

00:43:53:24 00:43:56:02
refugees in Turkey.

00:43:56:11 00:43:57:21
They have to to leave because

00:43:58:07 00:44:00:03
they were threatened by being killed

00:44:00:04 00:44:01:14
and sometimes by members of their

00:44:01:15 00:44:03:03
own family, an older brother, a

00:44:03:04 00:44:04:24
cousin or even a father.

00:44:05:15 00:44:06:20
And in that status, they

00:44:07:11 00:44:09:07
are double refugees because, A,

00:44:09:08 00:44:10:22
they share the same refugee

00:44:11:04 00:44:13:02
concerns and challenges just as any

00:44:13:03 00:44:13:21
other refugee.

00:44:13:22 00:44:15:04
But because of their sexual

00:44:15:05 00:44:16:04
orientation, they are

00:44:16:25 00:44:19:03
also being doubly targeted.

00:44:19:18 00:44:21:09
Turkey has more lenient

00:44:21:16 00:44:22:22
laws towards LGBTs.

00:44:23:09 00:44:25:14
However, some right wing groups

00:44:25:16 00:44:27:11
might actually harass them

00:44:27:12 00:44:28:11
or kill them.

00:44:28:12 00:44:29:13
So there is an interesting

00:44:29:14 00:44:31:18
documentary called Mr.

00:44:31:19 00:44:33:16
Gay Syria, where one

00:44:33:18 00:44:35:12
LGBT Syrian

00:44:35:18 00:44:38:00
man was asked to really

00:44:38:03 00:44:40:00
participate in this Mr. Gay

00:44:40:01 00:44:41:15
World competition.

00:44:41:17 00:44:42:22
And in the process of making the

00:44:42:23 00:44:44:12
documentary, he was outed to his

00:44:44:24 00:44:45:24
family.

00:44:46:01 00:44:46:21
He was married.

00:44:46:22 00:44:47:18
He lost his wife.

00:44:47:19 00:44:49:14
He lost his child who had

00:44:49:15 00:44:50:21
to go back to to Syria, to

00:44:51:13 00:44:53:05
a region now that's under the

00:44:53:06 00:44:54:11
bombing called Idlib.

00:44:54:25 00:44:56:13
There is an interesting section in

00:44:56:14 00:44:58:07
the movie where he said, I only did

00:44:58:08 00:44:59:13
it because I thought this would

00:44:59:14 00:45:01:12
highlight my chance of

00:45:01:13 00:45:03:01
being moved to

00:45:03:08 00:45:04:17
Europe, me and my family.

00:45:05:01 00:45:06:08
But now I'm just out and I

00:45:06:24 00:45:07:24
don't have a visa.

00:45:08:06 00:45:09:22
So you see the pressure sometimes

00:45:10:03 00:45:12:04
that that's international LGBT

00:45:12:05 00:45:13:14
groups and NGOs

00:45:14:07 00:45:16:09
exercised over these people where

00:45:16:10 00:45:18:03
they forced them to come out,

00:45:18:14 00:45:20:00
often to their detriment.

00:45:20:17 00:45:22:19
So this also happens at a much

00:45:22:20 00:45:24:13
smaller level where it doesn't carry

00:45:24:14 00:45:26:04
that much of a risk, you know, of

00:45:26:09 00:45:27:09
killing.

00:45:28:07 00:45:29:16
So there is this

00:45:30:02 00:45:31:24
Lebanese LGBT woman

00:45:32:00 00:45:33:14
who have come to New York.

00:45:33:23 00:45:35:12
She's trying to find support from

00:45:35:13 00:45:36:12
the American LGBT

00:45:37:08 00:45:38:19
groups, a support group.

00:45:38:20 00:45:40:13
And she's telling them, you know, I

00:45:40:15 00:45:42:09
cannot come out to my family.

00:45:42:10 00:45:44:11
And this American LGBT

00:45:45:01 00:45:46:01
guy telling her.

00:45:46:05 00:45:46:24
Well, so what?

00:45:46:25 00:45:48:05
You know, the heck with your family.

00:45:48:06 00:45:49:18
Who cares? It doesn't matter what

00:45:49:19 00:45:51:02
they think. And she said no.

00:45:51:03 00:45:52:20
But that's so important to me.

00:45:52:21 00:45:54:16
I cannot really risk abandoning

00:45:54:17 00:45:55:21
my family because without

00:45:56:17 00:45:58:21
them, I am cut off and I'm torn

00:45:58:22 00:46:00:19
and I I need them in my

00:46:00:20 00:46:02:06
life. So they have to maneuver

00:46:02:15 00:46:04:09
and find a way, sarah,

00:46:04:11 00:46:06:16
of basically making

00:46:06:17 00:46:08:04
their own life and then keeping

00:46:08:21 00:46:10:03
their family at the same time.

00:46:10:06 00:46:12:03
Because keeping both is such an

00:46:12:04 00:46:13:04
important thing for them.

00:46:13:06 00:46:14:21
And I think we need to

00:46:15:05 00:46:16:00
listen to them.

00:46:16:01 00:46:17:23
We need to hear their stories

00:46:17:24 00:46:19:18
and listen to their experiences

00:46:20:04 00:46:21:11
and what they need, rather

00:46:22:03 00:46:23:14
than us telling them what they

00:46:23:15 00:46:24:14
should do.

00:46:24:16 00:46:26:21
When LGBTQ people

00:46:26:22 00:46:28:16
do leave the Middle

00:46:28:17 00:46:31:01
East and land on a Western country

00:46:31:10 00:46:33:13
or in a less

00:46:33:18 00:46:35:11
oppressive Middle Eastern country

00:46:35:12 00:46:37:09
like Lebanon or Turkey or Israel,

00:46:38:04 00:46:40:10
are they sometimes disappointed

00:46:40:12 00:46:42:01
with the trade offs in their new

00:46:42:11 00:46:43:06
lives?

00:46:43:07 00:46:45:10
They are disappointed because

00:46:45:11 00:46:47:10
oftentimes they are

00:46:47:14 00:46:49:15
not finding out that they are being

00:46:49:16 00:46:51:09
embraced fully by the

00:46:52:04 00:46:54:06
counterparts, Western counterparts

00:46:54:15 00:46:56:11
from the basic dating apps where the

00:46:56:12 00:46:58:03
people says no Middle Easterners

00:46:58:04 00:46:59:04
apply.

00:46:59:05 00:47:00:06
No Arabs apply.

00:47:00:18 00:47:02:14
And often times we see

00:47:02:15 00:47:04:21
in countries such as Israel

00:47:05:06 00:47:07:07
that they are being used

00:47:07:09 00:47:09:15
also in a pinkwashing

00:47:09:17 00:47:10:14
practice.

00:47:10:15 00:47:11:21
What is Pinkwashing?

00:47:12:02 00:47:14:05
So Pinkwashing is where Israel

00:47:14:07 00:47:16:02
claims itself as a gay

00:47:16:07 00:47:17:07
mecca of the Middle East.

00:47:17:12 00:47:19:19
And by contrast, calls Palestinian

00:47:19:20 00:47:22:02
or Arab attitude towards LGBT

00:47:22:03 00:47:24:05
as backward in such a way

00:47:24:06 00:47:26:12
that would make us forget

00:47:26:13 00:47:28:12
the colonial practices

00:47:28:15 00:47:30:08
towards the Palestinians by the

00:47:30:09 00:47:32:05
Israeli IDF

00:47:32:16 00:47:33:16
groups.

00:47:34:04 00:47:35:10
What about the entry in the

00:47:35:11 00:47:36:21
encyclopedia called "Maculinity

00:47:38:01 00:47:39:08
in Iranian Cinema." What's

00:47:39:24 00:47:40:12
that?

00:47:40:13 00:47:42:01
That's the fascinating entry,

00:47:42:07 00:47:43:05
Sarah.

00:47:43:06 00:47:45:01
And it goes, you know, has the gamut

00:47:45:02 00:47:46:22
range from the macho

00:47:46:23 00:47:49:07
to the hyper

00:47:49:09 00:47:51:06
masculine, but also some feminine

00:47:51:08 00:47:53:00
examples, some cross dressing.

00:47:53:07 00:47:54:25
How could Iranian cinema

00:47:55:13 00:47:57:08
illustrate cross-dressing

00:47:57:20 00:47:59:17
in a country that has the death

00:47:59:18 00:48:01:24
penalty for homosexuality?

00:48:02:17 00:48:04:18
Well, and in most of the Middle

00:48:04:19 00:48:06:06
East, especially in the earlier

00:48:06:09 00:48:07:10
times, women were not

00:48:08:06 00:48:10:05
allowed. So oftentimes

00:48:10:06 00:48:11:07
male actors dressed as

00:48:12:01 00:48:14:05
women and they performed

00:48:14:07 00:48:15:19
female roles. And in this sense,

00:48:15:20 00:48:16:20
they got away with it.

00:48:16:24 00:48:18:13
But, you know, the interesting part

00:48:18:14 00:48:20:17
is that those people,

00:48:20:18 00:48:22:10
they found an avenue and an outlet

00:48:22:16 00:48:24:18
for expressing those

00:48:25:01 00:48:26:18
double identities that they want to

00:48:26:19 00:48:27:16
live in.

00:48:27:17 00:48:28:15
Right.

00:48:28:16 00:48:30:12
So we have cross dressers early

00:48:30:13 00:48:31:21
on in the nineteen hundred.

00:48:31:22 00:48:33:17
But later on, even

00:48:33:19 00:48:35:03
to this very day, we have

00:48:35:12 00:48:37:10
performers, famous performers

00:48:37:15 00:48:39:16
today in the Arab world, Lebanese

00:48:39:17 00:48:41:12
and Egyptian and others who are

00:48:41:13 00:48:43:03
actually men. And everybody knows

00:48:43:04 00:48:44:18
their men, but they are very well

00:48:45:00 00:48:46:18
known. Their experiences as women

00:48:46:24 00:48:48:03
and women performers.

00:48:48:07 00:48:49:07
And are they part of the trans
community?

00:48:49:24 00:48:51:17
They are part of the trans and they

00:48:51:20 00:48:53:19
are actually making headway to the

00:48:53:20 00:48:56:07
public culture as performers.

00:48:56:14 00:48:57:14
One is

00:48:59:15 00:49:01:05
a very well known performer.

00:49:01:10 00:49:03:16
People come and they watch

00:49:03:17 00:49:04:17
their shows and they listen to them

00:49:05:20 00:49:07:03
And people know they're trans,

00:49:08:07 00:49:09:25
and it's starting to sort of change

00:49:10:12 00:49:11:14
public attitudes?

00:49:12:02 00:49:14:01
Yes, as long it does not move

00:49:14:02 00:49:16:07
away from this performative

00:49:16:08 00:49:18:15
theater, then it is accepted

00:49:18:17 00:49:20:10
as maybe some people may take it as

00:49:20:15 00:49:21:24
a comic relief. But, you know, at

00:49:21:25 00:49:23:19
the very least, I see it as a

00:49:23:21 00:49:25:09
glimmer of hope, silver lining,

00:49:25:16 00:49:26:23
where there is a bit of an

00:49:26:24 00:49:27:23
acceptance.

00:49:28:12 00:49:29:17
What about the entry called

00:49:29:19 00:49:31:14
"Internet Queer Sites in

00:49:31:15 00:49:33:10
the Middle East?" What will we find

00:49:33:11 00:49:33:16
there?

00:49:33:17 00:49:36:00
So this is such a fascinating entry.

00:49:36:10 00:49:38:14
You'll see a range of sites set

00:49:38:16 00:49:40:03
Middle Eastern LGBTs are using

00:49:40:18 00:49:42:03
to connect with each other.

00:49:42:13 00:49:44:06
They connect with other queers

00:49:44:07 00:49:46:04
within the Middle East, not

00:49:46:05 00:49:47:24
just the outside world.

00:49:48:07 00:49:50:04
The Internet is a great place for

00:49:50:05 00:49:51:05
that. People hide

00:49:52:04 00:49:54:00
behind again the safety of

00:49:54:01 00:49:55:19
the lack of visibility

00:49:56:03 00:49:58:09
and behind the Internet sites,

00:49:58:18 00:50:00:13
connecting also with other causes.

00:50:00:24 00:50:02:08
The more successful examples

00:50:03:01 00:50:04:13
that Middle Eastern LGBT groups

00:50:04:21 00:50:05:21
found is tagging

00:50:06:21 00:50:08:10
their issues with other

00:50:08:18 00:50:09:18
bigger issues of the

00:50:10:17 00:50:12:19
national women's liberation,

00:50:12:21 00:50:14:21
LGBT rights and human

00:50:14:22 00:50:17:01
rights. So this group called Tellem

00:50:17:08 00:50:19:06
were successful in changing

00:50:19:15 00:50:21:12
Lebanese law that criminalizes

00:50:21:13 00:50:22:20
homosexual activities

00:50:23:09 00:50:24:19
by working with

00:50:25:08 00:50:27:09
lawyers under the umbrella

00:50:27:10 00:50:28:10
of human rights.

00:50:28:24 00:50:29:24
Thank you so much.

00:50:30:01 00:50:31:01
Absolutely, Sarah.

00:50:31:02 00:50:33:00
I think it's really important for us

00:50:33:01 00:50:35:01
to heed Middle Eastern LGBT

00:50:35:02 00:50:36:18
stories, to listen to them

00:50:37:00 00:50:38:23
and to let them define

00:50:38:24 00:50:41:06
their experience, not us dictating

00:50:41:09 00:50:43:02
our own experience on them.

00:50:43:09 00:50:44:18
They will have to find that path.

00:50:51:16 00:50:53:03
Hanadi Al-Samman is a professor

00:50:53:16 00:50:55:11
of Middle Eastern and South Asian

00:50:55:12 00:50:56:22
languages and cultures at the

00:50:57:07 00:50:58:17
University of Virginia.

00:50:59:00 00:51:00:13
She coordinated the Middle East

00:51:00:15 00:51:02:21
entries in the Global Encyclopedia

00:51:02:22 00:51:04:23
of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual,

00:51:04:24 00:51:06:22
Transgender and Queer History.

00:51:07:18 00:51:09:09
Major support for With Good Reason

00:51:09:17 00:51:11:07
is provided by the University of

00:51:11:08 00:51:13:09
Virginia health system using

00:51:13:10 00:51:15:00
advanced cardiac imaging

00:51:15:08 00:51:17:11
to better diagnose conditions before

00:51:17:12 00:51:19:09
they become serious health issues.

00:51:19:18 00:51:20:18
UVAhealth.com.

00:51:21:23 00:51:23:10
With Good Reason is produced in

00:51:23:11 00:51:25:09
Charlottesville by Virginia

00:51:25:10 00:51:27:12
Humanities, which acknowledges

00:51:27:13 00:51:28:14
the Monacan nation.

00:51:28:22 00:51:30:16
The original people of the land and

00:51:30:17 00:51:31:18
waters of her home in

00:51:31:19 00:51:32:22
Charlottesville, Virginia.

00:51:33:11 00:51:35:03
Our production team as Allison

00:51:35:04 00:51:36:12
Quantz, Matt Darroch, Lauren

00:51:37:08 00:51:39:08
Francis and Jamal Milner.

00:51:39:21 00:51:41:12
Aiden Carroll is our intern.

00:51:41:23 00:51:43:12
Some of the music is by Blue Dot

00:51:43:14 00:51:45:13
Sessions. For the podcast,

00:51:45:25 00:51:46:25
go to with GoodReasonRadio.org.

00:51:49:03 00:51:50:08
I'm Sarah McConnell.

00:51:50:14 00:51:51:17
Thanks for listening.